tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post6745620000830884030..comments2022-11-09T06:01:33.740-05:00Comments on ProSysPlus Blog: Reset: Tools And FrameworksUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-14470715765598423422011-01-24T13:31:32.847-05:002011-01-24T13:31:32.847-05:00For more discussion of Dabo as a foundation for a ...For more discussion of Dabo as a foundation for a pyjamas toolset: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/psp-python-toolset/ZPLiFu5vEqgHank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-69939018585123132982010-12-31T11:49:09.832-05:002010-12-31T11:49:09.832-05:00@JohnF: pyjamas apps can run as pure python apps o...@JohnF: pyjamas apps can run as pure python apps on the desktop, where all the standard Python debugging tools, unit tests, etc. come into play. If you want to watch the JavaScript, add the -d option to the compiler (translator), and watch the JavaScript console of your choice (the pyjamas FAQ gives suggestions for the basic browser choices).<br /><br />All that said, I do wish pyjamas had a visual designer of the class of Atlas (280Atlas.com). I expect a lot of that to change: Apple will be releasing a visual designer at their WWDC, it appears, for general web development that uses widgets and generates JavaScript. They have released the iAds version of it this or last week.<br /><br />In the meantime, I've found a developer who has been creating his own pyjamas widgets: I'm going to see if he'll write a tutorial on creating new widgets, to ease the way for the rest of us.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-16400952645986270392010-12-31T11:49:06.625-05:002010-12-31T11:49:06.625-05:00@JohnF: pyjamas apps can run as pure python apps o...@JohnF: pyjamas apps can run as pure python apps on the desktop, where all the standard Python debugging tools, unit tests, etc. come into play. If you want to watch the JavaScript, add the -d option to the compiler (translator), and watch the JavaScript console of your choice (the pyjamas FAQ gives suggestions for the basic browser choices).<br /><br />All that said, I do wish pyjamas had a visual designer of the class of Atlas (280Atlas.com). I expect a lot of that to change: Apple will be releasing a visual designer at their WWDC, it appears, for general web development that uses widgets and generates JavaScript. They have released the iAds version of it this or last week.<br /><br />In the meantime, I've found a developer who has been creating his own pyjamas widgets: I'm going to see if he'll write a tutorial on creating new widgets, to ease the way for the rest of us.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-11840555090392407532010-12-30T23:18:46.203-05:002010-12-30T23:18:46.203-05:00I'm very happy and sad to see that you left .N...I'm very happy and sad to see that you left .Net in the past. I'm sad because you spent lot's of time getting involved and programming. Happy because you have seen the light! <br /><br />My only issue with pyjamas is how in the hell can you debug it! I haven't used it yet but I do not see where it is easy to debug. At least not as easy as straight python.<br /><br />For those who seem to think buying tools from a large company (M$) is better than using a product such as Dabo I ask only one question - where is VFP 10, or IronPython today? <br /><br />I wrote the interface to Postgres for Dabo and I can say without question that it will be here today and tomorrow with more certainty than I can say silverlight will be here in the future!Johnfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054197237178700825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-85415084970323329052010-12-17T13:43:33.052-05:002010-12-17T13:43:33.052-05:00@VFP Likes Me: from what I've seen on the ins...@VFP Likes Me: from what I've seen on the instantions.com website (they are the creators of the GWT designer, which Google bought), the folks who designed the GWT designer don't do python, not a one of them, only java. Thus they have no plans to have it work with Python. The Google App Engine itself has a Python SDK; and in fact, advances show up there first.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-90539961384840850062010-12-17T13:28:24.525-05:002010-12-17T13:28:24.525-05:00I just wonder why google didn't used python fo...I just wonder why google didn't used python for it's GWT, python beeing one of it's used languages on the engine. I've recently bought a book on GWT and it looks pritty mature and has a lot of documentation.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813227776666239878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-10156349275820573002010-12-17T10:45:06.397-05:002010-12-17T10:45:06.397-05:00Cappuccinno is in fact being strongly developed. ...Cappuccinno is in fact being strongly developed. This from Francisco (one of the 3 founders of 280North) on the Dev maillist (Google Group): https://groups.google.com/d/msg/objectivej-dev/112MrWrZpdg/3yN_WT5pSTkJHank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-17222380458345275752010-12-16T12:51:04.809-05:002010-12-16T12:51:04.809-05:00@all: Here's how I am seeing the ProSysPlus st...@all: Here's how I am seeing the ProSysPlus stack now. This was created using a Cappuccino-based application, 280slides.com, written by the 280north.com folks who own Cappuccino, and are producing Atlas. http://280slides.com/Viewer/?user=62905&name=PSPStack&fullscreen<br /><br />@CrazyFox: I am seeing commits to Cappuccino on a regular basis, including one last week. The team has admitted they have been busy (likely in getting the platform to where Motorola wants it for Android), which is why I looked at the commits, to make sure I wasn't buying into a product whose development is glacial in its velocity.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-7931786690132433892010-12-16T11:31:22.197-05:002010-12-16T11:31:22.197-05:00I assume you've seen PyQT4? http://wiki.pytho...I assume you've seen PyQT4? http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyQt4Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-32934943858374513052010-12-16T04:08:26.836-05:002010-12-16T04:08:26.836-05:00Hi Frank,
I've been looking at using Python b...Hi Frank,<br /><br />I've been looking at using Python but have been toying with QT. While you do have to do a manual conversion from C++ to python the 'creator' seems easy enough at the moment (still early days).<br /><br />One downside so far seems to be a cross platform installer (particularly since I'm using Python 3)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00759809736474525828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-12551338011036177232010-12-16T03:02:24.568-05:002010-12-16T03:02:24.568-05:00@Hank:
I had seen Cappuccino in my foray about non...@Hank:<br />I had seen Cappuccino in my foray about non Silverlight alternatives, but after the sale it seems to have slowed down a lot. Haven't looked in depth though.<br /><br />@Pertti:<br />While I also like well designed and running things, I sometimes question the quest for the ideal GUI /Fwk. My best successes were "scripting" vfp for big iron data to difficult to mine there or glueing together different apps. I not only rewrote self-grown, but a part of a commercial fwk - but whenever I put too much trust into something it will break. Perhaps the Pathon idea of getting well designed blocks and glue them has more merit than we imagine. And as I am known for my aversion for Docs, the pseudo-code quality of python makes reading and fixing easier than in java or C#, nothing to say about the hair I lost on C/C++ libraries. <br /><br />regards<br /><br />thomasthomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03335803885527474021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-16268545478193197022010-12-16T03:02:24.331-05:002010-12-16T03:02:24.331-05:00@Hank:
I had seen Cappuccino in my foray about non...@Hank:<br />I had seen Cappuccino in my foray about non Silverlight alternatives, but after the sale it seems to have slowed down a lot. Haven't looked in depth though.<br /><br />@Pertti:<br />While I also like well designed and running things, I sometimes question the quest for the ideal GUI /Fwk. My best successes were "scripting" vfp for big iron data to difficult to mine there or glueing together different apps. I not only rewrote self-grown, but a part of a commercial fwk - but whenever I put too much trust into something it will break. Perhaps the Pathon idea of getting well designed blocks and glue them has more merit than we imagine. And as I am known for my aversion for Docs, the pseudo-code quality of python makes reading and fixing easier than in java or C#, nothing to say about the hair I lost on C/C++ libraries. <br /><br />regards<br /><br />thomasthomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03335803885527474021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-48008218553853480892010-12-16T01:54:32.029-05:002010-12-16T01:54:32.029-05:00Motorola, eh? I'm not sure if that's a go...Motorola, eh? I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Shouldn't they concentrate on developing a compelling follow-up to their one-hit-wonder, the Motorola Flip Phone?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04612192432176624666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-59534492795790964862010-12-14T18:12:01.376-05:002010-12-14T18:12:01.376-05:00@Pertti: by-and-large Atlas simply incorporates th...@Pertti: by-and-large Atlas simply incorporates the features of Cappuccino, which I understand to be taken from Cocoa. Given my perspective (domain experts creating the interface using metadata), being able to visually connect to events etc. is a great feature. BTW: Motorola owns the company that owns Cappuccino and Atlas (they bought, last August, to be able to attack the Android market by fostering app development). I'm looking forward to seeing how it could work with a real-world app.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-45668933654704120512010-12-14T18:07:32.802-05:002010-12-14T18:07:32.802-05:00@Pertti: reading through Cappucino a bit, it appea...@Pertti: reading through Cappucino a bit, it appeared to me that JSONRpc is an oft-used option. I could be mistaken. I signed up for the Atlas beta (but have to upgrade my desktop to run Snow Leopard before I can actually run it), so I'll be finding out.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-51549517839826864952010-12-14T14:15:07.895-05:002010-12-14T14:15:07.895-05:00Hank --
Interesting links to Atlas and Cappuccino...Hank --<br /><br />Interesting links to Atlas and Cappuccino. After checking out a few demos I am a bit concerned about how much time is spent on showing how a screen object anchors and stretches, and how little time (none, actually) is spent on talking about data connectivity, binding and other LOB app -related necessities.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04612192432176624666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-53850449444478058222010-12-14T13:19:40.158-05:002010-12-14T13:19:40.158-05:00@CrazyFox and @Pertti:
I'm on both sides of t...@CrazyFox and @Pertti:<br /><br />I'm on both sides of this question. @Pertti's comment about a first-class visual designer is incredibly important. If I have to play with CSS and manipulate the DOM, I can kiss productivity good-bye.<br /><br />But the ability to modify the framework to my use is also critical. What VPM offered was a class system that let us subclass everything. Which we did.<br /><br />I may have found half the answer for both questions: take a look at Cappucino and Atlas (both are from the same company; Cappucino (http://cappuccino.org/) is open source, Atlas (http://280atlas.com/), the IDE, is/will be for sale. I can see these on the client side, and Web.py-PureMVC-PSPData on the server side, connected with JSONRpc. The only downside is learning Objective-J for client-side processing -- but it looks very easy to learn from a VFP perspective, and would seemingly be needed only for subclassing the existing classes, which is to say, would only have to be done as needed. So client side programming would be done in Atlas (right now you have to run OSX Snow Leopard in a VM session, running on a VM-compatible Intel processor, to run the beta); while server side would be edited in Python edited in, e.g., PyCharm. This may be the best of both worlds.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-26245518863083137852010-12-14T12:49:25.973-05:002010-12-14T12:49:25.973-05:00@CrazyFox -- I, too, bought a commercial framework...@CrazyFox -- I, too, bought a commercial framework (ProMatrix) and modified it somewhat to fit my own needs. I could have saved some money and taken the free "open source" CodeBook -approach, but doing that I would've quickly spent much more money (in my time) than I spent on the framework which was already solid, well thought out and pretty bullet-proof.<br />I'm not suggesting paying for specific OS improvements, I'm just saying that I'd rather pay for a good framework and upgrades to it over time than participate in an open source project towards the same goal. Not because OS development isn't an interesting or a worthy enterprise, but simply because I have to earn a living by doing what I do best. And just like most other craftspersons I'd rather buy my tools from a tool manufacturer than join a tool manufacturing alliance in order to develop my own tools.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04612192432176624666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-38319865071068735782010-12-14T03:55:23.979-05:002010-12-14T03:55:23.979-05:00@Perrti:
The small size of dabo devs and user base...@Perrti:<br />The small size of dabo devs and user base is also worrying me. But the vfp frameworks were built from similar sizes: think the Feltons VFE, Arturo starting VFX which is currently developed by 3-5 people working part time on it, Drew starting his framework and so on.<br />For me frameworks only saved me some dev time, but I always had to rewrite some part more to my liking – may be part egomania, but sometimes was just necessary to get a project accepted. Offering to pay for OS enhancements might help (no data here) speed up things. But I also know some of the defects I sent back to MS were never fixed. Look up the „resolved“ list of issues in vfp which were „resolved“ by „won’t fix“ ;-)<br /><br />@Chris: Visual Webgui would take a role similar to the vfp engine for such apps: solid with a few warts, but project is governed by the any limitations existing there. I would want at least the source for it, to be able to implement a super-duper widget if such is asked for...<br /><br />@Hank: the MS tax on Amazon is 20-30% AFAIR compared to Amazon linux offering. Working off pyjamas desktop gives me an install on PC – but I assume that this approach is less snappy than hooking a GUI like wx or similar level. Haven’t looked enough how well-designed and –tested middle tiers for such an approach would be – might be unneccessary to reuse the dabo routines, but I stayed in the mindset of „basic stuff in via JS“ and optionally more eye candy / speed for installed app. Perhaps the „more“ part is not cost efficient / asked for enough to worry about.thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03335803885527474021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-88455517691200779302010-12-13T17:43:26.297-05:002010-12-13T17:43:26.297-05:00Hank --
True, VFP was supported but is no more, s...Hank --<br /><br />True, VFP was supported but is no more, supported, that is. But it still is a viable development platform because it was fastidiously developed by a for-profit company with proper documentation and source control.<br />I realize that the success of open source systems depends mostly on volunteers, and if you want to see something succeed, you better put some effort into it. That's fine if you have time to devote to a movement like that, but if you don't, you will just have to rely on commercial solutions and be willing to pay for them.<br />Regardless, Python looks pretty exciting now that it is gaining speed and altitude. Now we just need better instrumentation and intuitive, responsive controls to successfully fly the thing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04612192432176624666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-17340139829854402892010-12-13T15:29:56.074-05:002010-12-13T15:29:56.074-05:00@Pertti: well, VFP was supported and now what... ...@Pertti: well, VFP was supported and now what... PyJSGlade has to work and be extensible (but being Python will be extensible) for what I will be doing. The visual designer is a big deal. Ultimately, the viability of open source comes down to corporate support for the projects important to one's livelihood. Choosing between ensuring that happens and being subject to decisions made by middle managers at MS over whom I have not only no control but also for whom I have no means of meaningful input, is getting easier all the time.<br /><br />@Chris: I like Visual WebGui for what it does. But I have to ask myself: do I really want to work past all the object-data impedance mismatches in .Net, and then throw away the actual display mechanism? What am I gaining? I know what I'm losing: simple programming. E.g., compare setting up a JSONRpc session under WebPy with setting up the exact same thing under WCF. There is no comparison. So what do I gain in .Net? It's got a rich ecosystem, but not what I want. Google hit the sweet spot with GWT, and Microsoft at this point has no answer. I wish they did, since they are nice tools and we get them for free (my daytime employer is a Gold Certified Partner). Finally, there's the cloud. I can publish apps written in the tools mentioned here to the Google App Engine for Business (which will have mySQL available as a low-latency relational DB). I can do the same with Azure, but the DB size is limited, at least at this point. And the Azure pricing is not competitive. In general, Windows server cloud pricing is not competitive with Linux server cloud pricing (on Amazon's EC2, I think it's 4 to 5 times as much per minute). I guess that's the Microsoft tax, but I don't know that for sure. In the end: I'm going to be displaying HTML5, so why do I need to have a ton of software, that I an going to need to work around, in order to do that? I think that's the ghost that spooked Muglia when he said (unfortunately for him) that Silverlight was just for WinMo7. He was wrong (Silverlight is still under development -- hey, they are hiring), but he did grok the challenge MS is facing. And WinMo7 may be the one platform on which SL has an advantage over other UI technologies -- unless PhoneGap creates a wrapper for WinMo7 <s>.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-11176454238728466122010-12-13T15:28:37.868-05:002010-12-13T15:28:37.868-05:00@Pertti: well, VFP was supported and now what... ...@Pertti: well, VFP was supported and now what... PyJSGlade has to work and be extensible (but being Python will be extensible) for what I will be doing. The visual designer is a big deal. Ultimately, the viability of open source comes down to corporate support for the projects important to one's livelihood. Choosing between ensuring that happens and being subject to decisions made by middle managers at MS over whom I have not only no control but also for whom I have no means of meaningful input, is getting easier all the time.<br /><br />@Chris: I like Visual WebGui for what it does. But I have to ask myself: do I really want to work past all the object-data impedance mismatches in .Net, and then throw away the actual display mechanism? What am I gaining? I know what I'm losing: simple programming. E.g., compare setting up a JSONRpc session under WebPy with setting up the exact same thing under WCF. There is no comparison. So what do I gain in .Net? It's got a rich ecosystem, but not what I want. Google hit the sweet spot with GWT, and Microsoft at this point has no answer. I wish they did, since they are nice tools and we get them for free (my daytime employer is a Gold Certified Partner). Finally, there's the cloud. I can publish apps written in the tools mentioned here to the Google App Engine for Business (which will have mySQL available as a low-latency relational DB). I can do the same with Azure, but the DB size is limited, at least at this point. And the Azure pricing is not competitive. In general, Windows server cloud pricing is not competitive with Linux server cloud pricing (on Amazon's EC2, I think it's 4 to 5 times as much per minute). I guess that's the Microsoft tax, but I don't know that for sure. In the end: I'm going to be displaying HTML5, so why do I need to have a ton of software, that I an going to need to work around, in order to do that? I think that's the ghost that spooked Muglia when he said (unfortunately for him) that Silverlight was just for WinMo7. He was wrong (Silverlight is still under development -- hey, they are hiring), but he did grok the challenge MS is facing. And WinMo7 may be the one platform on which SL has an advantage over other UI technologies -- unless PhoneGap creates a wrapper for WinMo7 <s>.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-52295860786762047752010-12-13T14:22:38.786-05:002010-12-13T14:22:38.786-05:00Great stuff Hank and commenters. Any thoughts on a...Great stuff Hank and commenters. Any thoughts on a dev architecture like Visual WebGUI? Visual Studio familiarity + javascript client which is used only to render the GUI and pass events?<br /><br />Kind of a lock-in that isn't really locked... In the messing about that I have done to date, the only real requirement on the client side is javascript. <br /><br />Tempting, because the familiarity and testing we've done points towards good initial productivity. Looking for pitfalls to this approach.<br /><br />RegardsUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08451160707688548103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-14110290368789290512010-12-13T13:56:35.788-05:002010-12-13T13:56:35.788-05:00@crazyfox:
I am familiar with Dabo, and while it i...@crazyfox:<br />I am familiar with Dabo, and while it is certainly an interesting and promising project, the problem I have with it is that it is basically a garage project by two smart guys. Which is not to say that it won’t possibly become something much more significant (think: HP, which also started in a garage.) As it is now, however, I can’t with good conscience build mission critical applications on top of it.<br />And therein lies the problem I have with almost all current Python efforts – they are either volunteer –based or too convoluted UI –wise. I’ve looked high and low, and I may have missed something, but I have not found a tool (especially visual IDE) that makes me want to jump in with both feet. Unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of time to participate in open source projects, and that’s why I am more than willing to pay for a good implementation. I need to know that my top development tools are well built, documented, supported and updated. When I have a problem with software, I can’t wait for days for what might or might not be a proper answer to my question on a user forum.<br />The idea of non-JavaScript development system for JavaScript is great, though, and I sure hope Pyjamas or some other framework with the same approach rises to a level where visual development IDE is easy to install and configure, highly usable, full-featured, well supported/documented and stable enough for heavy day-in-day-out use.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04612192432176624666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7079091.post-40315264520554896512010-12-13T10:12:14.934-05:002010-12-13T10:12:14.934-05:00@CrazyFox: well, I'm thinking Web.py and JSONR...@CrazyFox: well, I'm thinking Web.py and JSONRpc, actually. I have many things to say about ORM's, however this is not an "adults only" blog. <s> The Pyjamas Desktop takes care of the need for an installable app: it's running Python, as you've likely read. Running on Windows is unlikely to be an issue (although lack of a decent connection certainly makes the Cloud an issue), and I agree, Windows servers are the rule for nearly all the businesses I've dealt with in the past few years. The big change, though, is the Enterprise's willingness, in fact eagerness, to avoid having servers at all by going to the Cloud. Not for the most central apps, yet, but definitely for niche apps.Hank Fayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01493468995752296711noreply@blogger.com